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Westworld Season 1 Episode 6 Recap | The Adversary

thandie

Listen to the Podcast:

Welcome to Westworld! Every week, Josh Wigler (@roundhoward) and Jo Garfein (@jopinionated) will discuss the new HBO series about an old west theme park built in a futuristic world, populated by robot hosts and human guests. Theories, analysis, and overall madness is sure to ensue.

This week, Josh and Jo talk about “The Adversary,” the sixth episode of the series. It’s a Thandie Newton showcase as Maeve questions and answers the nature of her reality, discovering the full basic truth about Westworld and her existence as a host. Plus, Robert Ford reveals some secrets of his own, and we can now officially name the young boy “Robot Ford,” much to a troubled Bernard’s chagrin. The mole stands revealed as well… or does she? And even without Dolores and William in play this week, there’s a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it development that all but confirms the two timeline theory.

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Curt Clark (@CurtClark) provides his thoughts on the two timeline theory:

In listening to your Episode 4 recap, Jo mentioned that Westworld isn’t the sort of show you can multi-task where you can multi-task while watching.  And she was 100% correct.  I felt completely lost and resolved to go back and binge watch the first five episodes…and I began to observe some interesting things that largely support a dual timeline narrative…one centering around William and Logan and one for pretty much everything else.

As I began to track the William and Logan storyline, which was featured in Episodes 2, 4 and 5 (with a brief touchpoint at the end of Episode 3), I noticed something interesting…there are quite a few characters, both in front of and behind the scenes, that NEVER intersect with their storyline.  To note, William and Logan have never interacted or crossed paths with the following people: Teddy, Maeve, The Man in Black, Ford, Bernard, or anyone else working in what I term “Mission Control.”  We only see them interact with Dolores, Clementine and (in Pariah) Lawrence.  Of note, when Mission Control is considering retiring Maeve, they mention that Clementine could take over the brothel because she’s run it before.  In Episode 2, we only see Clementine at the brothel when William and Logan first arrive in Sweetwater…no Maeve.  Is she running it at this point?  This also fuels my theory that Teddy is a host that was made as an homage to William…the two main “good guys” in Dolores’s life. Recall that both William and Teddy have an encounter with Dolores where she drops a canned good out of her bag and it rolls and they stop it with their feet…this could be viewed at the surface as just a nice parallel between two moments…or was Teddy re-enacting something he was programmed to that was meant to mirror a moment William shared with Dolores many years ago?  And note that the Man in Black also mirrored the same “can stopping” action in a third instance.  Further connection between William and the Man in Black?

There are a couple potential violations of this, depending on how you view the edit.  First, at the end of Episode 3, right before Dolores shoots her potential rapist in the barn of her family’s homestead, she has a momentary vision where she sees her attacker as The Man in Black.  She then rides off into the night to escape.  Moments later, we see her stumble into William and Logan’s camp.  At first glance, it seems she went there from the attack (in which case the Man in Black timeline and the William timeline are concurrent).  But…she is no longer on a horse and we have no reason to believe William and Logan are camping near her homestead.  So it’s uncertain.

Secondly, there is a moment when Stubbs is told that a host is out of their assigned area, and it is uncertain if they are with a guest or not.  Later that episode, in the small town where Lawrence’s wife was killed, Dolores is approached by what seems like a park official, asking who she is with and if she is lost…and William steps in.  Again, we are meant to assume these are part of the same timeline…but Stubbs could be addressing a completely different incident elsewhere.

Anyway, my mind is swimming with each episode…of both Westworld and your podcast.  Thanks for the analysis!

 

Sarah Freeman (@ChannonSarah) provides thoughts on her “Bernarnold” theory:

Really excited by episode 6, in part because Maeve is awesome and in part because it provided more fodder for my favourite theory, that of Bernard being a host version of Arnold.

• The fact that the host version of Robert Ford’s family has existed for (presumably) at least 34 years outside of the system sets a precedent for unregistered hosts. It also sets a precedent for Ford using the hosts to recreate loved ones in happier times. Wouldn’t that include his former collaborator in their life’s work?

• Judging by Ford’s later interaction with his younger host self, these hosts follow the same rules as any other (which makes sense, considering we’ve already seen Young Ford encounter a guest–the Man in Black.) The father should not have been able to hurt a human, yet Ford interceded when he attacked Bernard…. Ergo, Bernard is not a human.

• Six episodes in, and we still don’t know Arnold’s full name? There’s a reason the writers are hiding it and him sharing a name with another character seems like it would require other characters to be particularly blind at this point. I’m standing by my Bernard Lowe / Arnold Weber anagram theory.

• When Elsie realizes somebody else is in the house, she calls first Bernard’s name and then Arnold’s. A sly tip off by the writers, because she’s right on both counts? (Perhaps this is a bit of wishful thinking on my part, since host Bernarnold shouldn’t kill human Elsie.)

The problem with the theory right now is that it supposes Ford to have created Bernard… but it seems Ford is not the perpetrator of these anomalies. Somebody else is talking to the malfunctioning hosts. Does that mean somebody else is controlling Bernarnold, or is there more than one solution to the Arnold mystery? A host Bernarnold *and* the real surviving Arnold somewhere?

PS Maeve is awesome.

  • TrentC

    The look on that tech guy’s face when he thought he bricked Maeve at the beginning was hilarious.

    • Matt The Golem

      Yeah reminded me of Win95 BSOD LOL. He needed to power off and reboot her.

  • 2dog

    I wonder if Ford is not real?
    He controls it all without technology
    He shows up in his world at the right time
    For example when Bernard showed up at his home in the wood there he was?
    Now I wonder if someone knows his secret and is there on behalf of Arnold?
    Thoughts??????????

    • TrentC

      How about – Arnold and Ford had a falling out, Arnold killed Ford. Then he put Ford’s consciousness into a host or a VR simulation and is controlling him?

      conspiracy theory #236 :)

    • 2dog

      Ford is not REAL
      Arnold build him
      And he rebuild himself!

      • 2dog

        Ford killed Arnold

        • 2dog

          Ford keeps these old hosts around to remind him of his builder Arnold

          • 2dog

            And the man in black is Arnold’s brother who figured out that his brother may have been killed by one of his own robots. And now that robot is running Westworld, The man in black’s quest is to see if this is true?

          • 2dog

            Arnold downloaded his consciousness into Ford to make him more life like without realizing the consequence……his life!

          • 2dog

            And do think Ford is the mold?
            That over the years Arnold’s consciousness was able to develop a (?) with in the robot-host?
            That Arnold was able to send a message to MIB through Ford without him being able to stop Arnold?
            That both are struggling for control of Ford?
            Thoughts?????

        • Jacey D.

          thats exactly what i thought. nice theory.

  • J-me not Hi-me

    Speaking of the hosts being created in the likenesses of people from Robert/Arnold’s past, when Ford was looking at the image of the maze drawn in Arnold’s notebook, it certainly looked like there was a drawing of Dolores’ face on the next page over.

  • TrentC

    Thanks again for another good recap J&J. Have to make this quick…Jo brought up the one thing I think is key in a world where there are probably 82 things that are key…the way Ford can manipulate the environment with hand motions and seemingly adjust the hosts by touching them. Hope that’s part of a big reveal.

    • J-me not Hi-me

      Maybe Ford is a Jedi. :)

      • TrentC

        These are not the droids you’re looking for.

        *vague gesture in the direction of 426 hosts*

        I think it’s strange how the rest of the park’s employees have to take a nuts and bolts approach to interacting with the droids..er..hosts during repairs/upgrades, yet Ford can literally stop them from moving with a wave.

    • Andiamo

      Like Ford said to mini-me Ford, “Everything in this world is magic, except to the magician.” It seems like there’s a set of commands and gestures that Ford secretly created which he can use, at least in part, to convince people that he’s in control.

      The weird thing was that It didn’t seem like there was any reason for him to stop the town just to have a conversation. So I feel like they were just trying to give us more clues. One thing I thought was really interesting was that, while Ford can control everything from the hosts, to the piano, to the church bells, the one thing that he did not or could not stop was the water flowing in the fountain. And the man who was closest to the fountain was the last to come back to life. Also, in the scene with Theresa the wine was the one thing that didn’t freeze.

      I do think there is something important about that fountain. I remember
      Dolores looking at it in a weird way just before she talked to
      Lawrence’s daughter. Also, what’s up with that girl? Is she permanently “woke” now?

      The fact that Ford can’t stop liquids from flowing may also metaphorically relate to his inability to stem the tide once the hosts gain consciousness. Also, Arnold’s wish to destroy the park because he doesn’t approve of the direction for “humanity” that the hosts have been programmed toward seems pretty darn close to the biblical story of the flood. I’m going to take a not-so-wild guess that Mr. Flood plays a central part in this; And that Ford may be powerless to stop it.

      • TrentC

        Some very interesting observations. I think the water/wine moving may be simplistic where he can’t physically stop an element moving like natural liquids in motion. Things like the church bells and the piano would be easier to control as they were created as solid parts of the environment. I’m not sure if it’s a deep metaphor about what Ford can and can’t control, maybe more of a straightforward physics thing.

        Lawrence’s daughter being triggered or woke’d is another good question. Some hosts seem to be activated or altered, while others just go about their daily loops. I wonder what the parameters are to be part of the first category?

        Regarding the timing of things moving again, I found it was like the lights in the lab area. The closer Ford moves towards something, the objects surrounding him seem to reactivate.

        Apologies, when you mention a possible flood, I can’t help but see the scene of Sizemore peeing on the 3D map of Westworld lol!

        • Andiamo

          I thought about it being simple physics, but then I thought the metaphor of the flood was more fun, so I went with that. I’ll agree the wine was a stretch.

          It’s true about the lights, but the workers out in the field were much farther than the fountain guy and they started right up. Ford doesn’t want to disrupt that town for some reason. Maybe it’s the people, maybe he is sentimental, but maybe, just maybe it’s the magic fountain…

          See! I forgot about Sizemore peeing. It’s proof!

  • Karen Foster

    Prior to this episode if we see Maeve in underclothes, they are white. In this episode, she wakes with not only a black nightgown, it is also an exact copy of Delores’ white nightgown, complete with the red ribbon.
    Will there be more than one “side” to the host uprising?

  • Matt The Golem

    Haven’t listened yet but hope you gush over how great Thandie Newton is.

    • Matt The Golem

      Listened and thanks to Josh and Jo for another great elevator ride down into the depths of the episode.
      And thanks for #blackhattipping the cameo by Yul Brynner’s original Gunslinger.

  • Robin Duns

    Great podcast again you two! Josh, you mentioned Sidse Babett Knudsen is Dutch a few times. Pretty sure she’s Danish? She was the lead in a really good Danish series, Borgen.

  • 2dog

    I think the scene where Ford is talking to the boy about the dead dog turns into Ford talking to Arnold.
    I think Arnold’s consciousness lives in Ford.
    When the boy talking about the dog-voice- Arnold told me “it was a killer
    it wasn’t his fault, it was made that way”
    It is really Arnold talking to Ford
    Then Arnold tells Ford “I could help it” referring to Ford
    If it was dead it couldn’t hurt anything anymore

  • Andiamo

    I don’t really understand how Maeve developed consciousness. Was it just a matter of someone tweaking her paranoia and self preservation? Was it that in combination with hearing “These violent delights…?” Why does Dolores need secret meetings with Bernard, voices to guide her, and the maze while Maeve just basically woke up on her own?

    I wonder if the person who tweaked her personality didn’t intend for her to become conscious. Maybe they were trying to use her for another purpose.

    I’m just waiting for someone to tap into that battalion of naked, decaying, decommissioned hosts. They’re already standing in formation, they just need their marching orders.

    • Tusk

      Didn’t they say there were 80+ 1st generation hosts still active? Those would be the ones that might have been programmed by Arnold, who they’ve implied might have left a little something of himself in all his creations aka a way to hack into and control the unit.

      As far as Maeve’s awakening compared to Delores’. I think Maeve is able to independently accelerate her progression because of the matrix set up. They said she was set at a 14, as ‘smart’ as hosts were ‘allowed’ to be, so for hosts, she’s among the smartest and probably more likely to put 2 and 2 together. Perhaps Delores’ setting was set lower so it took her longer to figure out what was happening to them.

      I think the triggering phrase gave them access to their repressed memories while they were awake so they couldn’t discount them as nightmares (nightmares were included in all their programming as a justifiable way to account for random memories of past abuses). Their general curiosity would cause them to investigate these day nightmares, causing them to go outside the parameters of their set abilities and personalities, triggering the pathway to self realisation and sentience.

      Also, Maeve discovered a way to over ride her sleep command, Delores hasn’t yet, so Maeve’s progress of discovery is hastened.

      It’s starting to look more and more likely, the ‘secret meetings’ occur in Delores’ mind/subconscious whether her mind is creating them or they are communications w/ Arnold/Bernard/Ford?

      • Andiamo

        I also think the meetings aren’t physically happening. But Bernard does seem interested in her developing consciousness. So instead of reading Alice in Wonderland to her and telling her to find the center of the maze, wouldn’t it be easier to just bump up her smarts a little?

        • TrentC

          You guys/gals don’t think that Bernard is actually sitting there with Dolores during their meetings?

          I can’t recall, are there other workers in the lab when those scenes are taking place? Seems to me the place is totally empty when Bernard is interacting with her. Could support what you’re thinking about.

          • Andiamo

            No I don’t think they’re really there. At the end of episode 3 she runs away from her house to the campsite where William is. Episode 4 starts with her and Bernard talking. She tells him her parents were dead and she ran away. Then right after they talk we see her wake up with William looking over her. As with many things, the timing makes no sense. I can’t see how she physically could have left and come back without William noticing. So I went back and starting paying attention to the scenes with Bernard.

            I found that every time we see her talk to him she is shown either looking in a mirror before or after they talk or waking up afterward.

            I think what we’re seeing is either memories of past conversations that she accesses while she dreams, or they have a way of communicating without being physically in the same place. I’m leaning towards the latter. When they begin
            she often says she’s in a dream, and I think we should take that at
            face value.

            Also, Dolores is always clothed, and Bernard is always wearing a black lab coat that we’ve never seen him wear.
            I think this is because it’s her visualization of the conversation and so we see it from her perspective.

            They “meet” in a room that is glass enclosed, but with a concrete wall behind it. Not like the ones we normally see with the techs. (It looks similar to the room where Ford met with the little boy.) And you’re right, no one else is ever there.

            I think the conversation in the last episode with Ford was mostly from his perspective. In that one she’s naked. When she says she’s in a dream he says “Yes, Dolores, you’re in my dream.” When she says at the end that she didn’t tell him anything, that’s after he walks out and the lights are out, so I think that marked the end of his perspective.

            By the way, doing a rewatch was pretty fascinating. I was going to wait, but these conversations were bugging me.

          • TrentC

            That’s some good detective work, thanks. There are so many levels to this show, I’m going to wait and do a rewatch at the end of season one and try to binge it within two days.

            This is offhand, but one exchange fascinated me and maybe you can recall if it was with Bernard. Dolores was talking about grief or grieving and the other person asked (paraphrasing) if she felt closed off or restricted because of it. Dolores said she felt the opposite, like the grief opened extra rooms within herself (or her heart). I thought it was an awesome and simultaneously scary statement because it both described how I’ve felt and it was said by an artificial life form.

            Now with what you’ve said above I’m going to look at future Bernard/Dolores exchanges with a lot more suspicion. I never realized she was always dressed when chatting with Bernard.

          • Andiamo

            That is a beautiful quote. And it’s one that stood out to me for another reason while I was rewatching. When they mentioned the Bicameral Mind I did a little reading on it because I thought it sounded interesting ( not so much to figure out the show.)

            What I read was that understanding and using
            metaphorical language is an important part of the shift from the primitive, bicameral mind to a modern mind capable of true consciousness. It was the first time that Dolores spoke that way on her own, while improvising.

            What I’m trying to say is don’t feel bad for being moved by a robot, if that’s why you were scared, because it means she’s not quite a robot anymore. But if you were scared because of how complex AI thought can be, then I agree, you should be scared.

          • TrentC

            It was the latter that I find intimidating. In the Battlestar Galactica reboot the humans worship a handful of gods, similar to an old pagan system where each god represents a different aspect of their belief.

            The cylons advance to the point where they can’t be distinguished from humans. At one point the cylons start telling the humans that there is only one true god, and their belief system is antiquated and false.

            I thought that was brilliant and terrifying. Robots telling their former makers that they have evolved past the maker’s outdated belief system.

          • Andiamo

            I watched that show, and I loved it, but I binge watched it and promptly forgot most of it. This topic is definitely both fascinating and terrifying. But could AI do a much worse job of understanding “humanity” than humans have? I’m not sure. (Admittedly I’m super cynical right now, and I’ve been spending a ridiculous amount of time thinking about this show as a way to avoid turning on the news and thinking about actual “humanity”since Tuesday.)

            Something else I think is interesting is that these AI beings have only ever been exposed to this microcosm of a world. They have only seen the absolute worst of humanity, whether their treatment by the guests or the staff. If these are their models, and violence and aggressive self-interest is all they have been exposed to, I wonder how this will effect them as they become more conscious.

            Dolores at least has Bernard and William to guide/protect her. I wonder if that will make her outlook any different than Maeve’s.

          • TrentC

            I share Elon Musk’s opinion and fears about A.I. As someone who loves technology there’s some internal hypocrisy we also share. In essence Musk warns that A.I. could become more of threat against man than nukes and we need to take care with the development of it. My fear is that when computer intelligence goes beyond the if this, then that algorithm, and makes decisions based on what it thinks is best, and not what is best for mankind, that’s when we become extinct.

            Quite a tangent of internal beliefs there, back to Westworld. Good point, the robots on the show have only been exposed to the microcosm of the park and the exposure to only a limited amount of humans, who have acted demonstrating limited behaviors. It would be interesting to see how a host would react in the outside world. Are they truly learning creatures? We’ve seen them adapt and improvise lines, but are they able to understand ideas like absolute self preservation and continuity of their species?

            If the TV series follows the original movie, Medieval World and Roman World could be explored as well. Unfortunately, until we understand more of the world’s logic from the show, it’s too difficult to predict what may happen in their future. They could be on a spaceship for all we know, or the entire cast could be versions of hosts and there’s only one real human left controlling everything.

          • Andiamo

            I’ve been reading some of Elon Musk’s thoughts on AI, so thanks for the heads up, it’s really interesting. Kind of gives me a different perspective on Ford being uber controlling about keeping it out of Delos’ hands. Fun fact- did you know the host who greeted William is Elon Musk’s ex wife?

          • TrentC

            The umm….super hot host?

            Did not know that, thanks!

          • TrentC

            I try not to read other sites and stick to the podcasts and comments here. Below I was talking about a possible exchange I liked between Dolores and Bernard.

            Did some googling and our friend Josh Wigler kindly wrote about the episode at The Hollywood Reporter website. Big thanks to Josh for posting the following:

            She’s gutted at the loss of her parents, but when Bernard offers to take
            away the pain, she refuses: “Why would I want that? The pain, their
            loss, is all I have left of them. You think the grief will make you
            smaller inside, like your heart will collapse in on itself, but it
            doesn’t. I feel spaces opening up inside me like a building with rooms I
            never explored.”

  • Tusk

    My feeling that this show is throwing out a bunch of things to see what sticks, see which trail they’ll chose to follow later, as opposed to a tight, sound, Sci-fi story with clear mystery and motivation with a clear beginning, middle and ending, is getting stronger.

    It wants it’s audience to feed on it’s possible hints and ‘clues’ so we can be misdirected more easily. Westworld is Not Science Fiction, it’s Science Fantasy

    • GeekFurious

      We know that is the opposite of what they’re doing. They’ve said they went back and made sure they knew exactly where it was going and that’s why they did reshoots, to connect all the dots.

      • Tusk

        If that’s true, then they still missed the biggest issue of the telling of a story from different times within the story…. justification of the host technology and how quickly or much it’s advanced over the span of 30 years.

        As it’s presented in the show, we are lead to believe that Arnold’s host builds have always had the potential for self activation and sentience hidden within his programming. That it took 30 years after his “death” to activate. Was Arnold’s sentience, the ghost in the Machine, activated somehow? Was there a 30 year gestation period for Arnold’s consciousness to self realise?

        Even though we see the inner workings of the 1st generation build through young Ford, something as complex as a balanced bipedal, self motivated, independent thinking automaton to transition into something that is artificial bone, blood and muscle, who’s only difference to us is it’s lack of sentience AND without any discernible difference in appearance, weight, power supply and cognition is a very big elephant in the room. Thus my contention that this is Science Fantasy not fiction….their answer to their primary characters’ existence, history and motivation is….wait for it…. SCIENCE!!!

        Maybe Arnold wasn’t actually a human being….maybe this all ‘works’ because Arnold is an Infinity Stone incarnate? :P

        I’m not trying to be a ‘Debby Downer’ in my posts… if this were something that happened 5, even 10 years after Arnold died, I might have an easier time swallowing what they’re shoveling…I can accept that all this is happening 5 years after Arnold’s death…that’s a reasonable time for the hosts’ builds to not have changed much, for Arnold to ‘re-activate’….for the MIB to continue on his own quest (Do we really believe he’s been doing this for 30 years?…or it’s taken him 30 years to go on all the ‘rides’ in WW?

        Let’s not forget that WW is losing lots of money…for how long? Recently? 5 years ago…have they been losing money for 30 years after one of the masterminds of WW died? We can see that WW, as it stands, must cost astronomical $$ to keep running…what caused them to lose so much money?

        Again, the scenario of Management looking into restructuring after losing money, you can see happening over a period of 5-10 years after Arnold’s death, but 30 years?

        Then there’s the issue of how many hosts are in the park of each character. The story, as it’s told, tells us there is only one Delores, One Maeve, One Teddy. There is no indication that there are duplicates. If there were, then we’d have to assume that the duplicates are linked into one mind for the character. This needs to be the case because each host character’s arc is reliant on their recall of their abusive past to trigger their sentience. For WW a HUGELY expensive park to Run, to maximize the guest experience, each guest who came back would expect that their favorite ‘ride’ is available. If there were only one Maeve, one Delores…then it follows only one guest gets to use that host at a time. If I returned, $40k in hand, wanting to go on an adventure w/ Delores, well, I’m out of luck, she’s off with another guest, I’ll have to find another experience

        If there aren’t duplicates of each host, then would the opposite be that WW builds several thousand completely unique builds with their own matrixes? Just doesn’t seem very cost effective for a park that’s losing money…

        I guess to enjoy this, I’m just going to have shift into seeing WW as something akin to Game of Thrones or Flash Gordon… a Fantasy story with the trappings of Science, but not dependent the laws of science.

        • TrentC

          I hear what you’re saying and epic post by the way, but you have to wonder that in a production this large, with all of the talent involved (read:money), it would be an incredible crapshoot just to start throwing out ideas and go with whatever sticks later.

          Lots of negative fallout after the last seasons of Lost and similar shows that literally collapsed under the weight of their faulty internal logic, or painted themselves into a corner in terms of writing and plot direction.

          I believe the writers/producers are probably at least aware of shows like Mr. Robot season one, The Leftovers, and how they are changing the landscape of television and how we watch it.

          Logically, with a production this immense, they would have to have some sort of outline of what is going on, coupled with what will be going on, coupled with what has already happened.

          Or more simply put, they realize the viewers are more sophisticated and will be literally analyzing every scene. They can’t just throw vague ideas out and make it up as they go along, depending on what ‘works’ in their ever-changing wheelhouse of ideas.

          I’m hoping and want to believe as a viewer, that there is a deeper plan already at work and everything we’re seeing right now is part of it.

          • Tusk

            I can’t answer what their plan is or if they even have one, since I’m on the consumer end of this relationship. All I know is what they show. Maybe they have a loose outline like…

            -based on movie Westworld
            -twist told from point of view of robot as it becomes sentient.
            -twist Man in Black is Human
            -big evil corporation
            -there’s a mystery…a video game like mystery, meet people gather clues
            -Nudity and Violence
            -as much Anthony Hopkins with God Complex as we can afford
            -Robots revolt

            Then they write the story based on their ideas on the character motivation and interaction to move the story forward. They know what viewers respond to, bright things, pretty things, naked things, loud things and funny things. If all of that works and brings in the ratings, why would they have to worry about internal logic or…..look Bright Light!!! ;)

            I very much hope that they do have a strong plan… I just hope they keep the story lines tight, move forward but work within the rules that they’ve established. If they don’t, there is a possibility the last scene in the WW series is the Man in Black waking up from a fevered dream in his bed somewhere in Iowa :P

          • TrentC

            ” If all of that works and brings in the ratings, why would they have to worry about internal logic or…..look Squirrel!!! ;)

            lol, making me laugh. I think to answer this it’s what I touched on. They realize we the consumers, have become more sophisticated and demanding when it comes to a show’s internal logic and TV in general. Maybe a show like Starship Troopers could get away with loose or missing logic, this one seems different to me.(hoping)

            I’m gonna have faith and say this group has the large whiteboard you mention above, but it’s more detailed and things that we saw in episode one, will be realized and explained in later eps.

        • GeekFurious

          I got an idea… watch the rest of the season before deciding they won’t make it work.

          • Tusk

            LOL we’re just having fun discussing things….that’s a problem?

  • Andiamo

    As far as what Jo said about the woodcutter having something to do with carving the maze into the table and coffin, don’t forget it was also on Kissy’s skull and the branding iron that they tried to brand Teddy with. So I don’t buy that.

    But it does beg the question, why did the Man in Black need to scalp Kissy in the first place if the maze is printed all over the place? His information is a little sketchy.

    • TrentC

      The branding iron caught my eye as well. If it’s like a trade logo on wooden crates and also a cattle brand, it’s gotta be affiliated with a ranch or a business, rather than some great secret map to a maze. To me it denotes ownership.

  • DirectorEvil

    Felix the cat.
    Sylvester the cat.
    Two cats for a rabbit hole.